Wiley Vs. Webcomics

[Jennifer Babcock]

As you may or may not know, Wiley is being criticized by a lot of webcomic artists as being some sort of mean old, scared man looking to bring down an honorable art (web comic writing).

There was a huge Wiley v. Kurtz thread on toontalk.org, which I thought got out of hand. I believe that a lot of web comic artists were blowing Wiley's statements out of proportion. I dont think Wiley was wishing Kurtz doom- I think he was just giving him his honest, professional opinion, seeing as how he has been syndicated for well over a decade.

Wiley did two cartoons that web comic artists are upset about. The most recent one:

www.ucomics.com/nonsequitur/2004/12/31/

makes fun of web comic artists who think they should be entitled to some level of prestige or greatness b/c they can upload their cartoon on the net, and what not.

I don't think Wiley was necessarily targeting this cartoon at webcomic artists that deserve the recognition they get . Instead, I think he was making fun of the web cartoonist's bloated mentality, in general. Many web cartoonists, even if they can't draw or write all that well, get full of hot air if they have a ton of hits on their site. Consequently, a lot of web comic artists seem to suggest that they should be treated with the same level of professionalism, even if they aren't all that talented.

In the case of Penny Arcade and PVP, who are able to make their income from their comic- obviously they are professionals in the field of web comics. But they represent a very small minority.

On a side note- I tend to like web comics (the good ones at least) more than syndicated ones. They're much more bold and honest.

What do you guys think?

[murp27]

I'm sorta surprised a heated discussion could even take place concerning such a topic. To me, this isn't something to get stressed about.

[Jennifer Babcock]

murp27 said:

I'm sorta surprised a heated discussion could even take place concerning such a topic. To me, this isn't something to get stressed about.

It really has gone overboard. I believe it all started w/ a debate on toontalk.org about whether or not Scott's plan to syndicate his comic for free was going to work or not. Wiley was giving reasons why he didn't think it would be successful, which started this huge battle between him, Kurtz, and Kurtz's fans. Then it just escalated even more after a couple of cartoons Wiley did.

People seem to missing the point of the argument though. Now it's just degenerated into a cat fight about which is better: web comics or print comics.

[MightyMartian]

It's kind of like the old apples and oranges deal, don't you think? From what I can tell, web comics can get away with a lot more things that have an edge to them that newspaper comics (and webcomics hoping to be syndicated) can't. I think Penny Arcade has stuff that is really funny that there would be no way a newspaper editor would go for. I know for my strip I try to keep the humor more 'family friendly' in hopes of getting it syndicated, yet if I didn't worry about trying to get picked-up, I'd definitely go for a harder edge that would make South Park look like Teletubbies. ;D

[MacManDeluxe]

Honestly, I don't think you can say "in general, which is better?" It's not a matter of apples and oranges, since they are essentially the same thing. What's better, apples or apples? You really have to look at specific cartoons to compare. I mean, if CLV were to suddenly get syndicated into all the major newspapers, it would then be a print comic. But, it would still be the same CLV as it was before (unless the editors get in the way). Also, you'll notice that most printed comics have their own web sites. So, really I think that the debate has no grounding. Certain webcomics are better than certain printed comics. Certain printed comics are better than certain web comics.
It's funny how things tend to explode on the internet. I think people need to take a deep breath and calm down.

[MightyMartian]

I don't think either one is better (I like comics from both), I just think you can get away with more on the web than what the newspapers would allow. That's what I meant by apples and oranges. Personally, I don't see what the big deal is myself.

[Jennifer Babcock]

Like I've said before, I dont' see why people are getting all huffy about this debate on other forums. I believe I said in my Comixpedia Interview that web comics and print comics can co-exist peacefully mainly b/c their content tends to be quite different. Web comics are more risque and tend to tie into geek/gaming/fantasy whereas print comics are usually political or family oriented.

This is where I feel stuck, b/c while I still think I could provide something fresh to newspapers, many editors are going to think my stuff is too risque (for reasons I can't quite "get" yet). On the other hand, my work is pretty tame for a web comic.

Anyway, we'll see what happens.

I know Wiley hasn't responded to any of the attacks against him, so maybe this whole debate will die down soon.

[Jennifer Babcock]

On another note, I think web comic artists are mad at Wiley b/c they think that he thinks that all web comics are garbage. I don't believe that Wiley holds this opinion (though I am just assuming)- but I think a lot of people are taking his strips very personally.

[MightyMartian]

Jennifer said:

This is where I feel stuck, b/c while I still think I could provide something fresh to newspapers, many editors are going to think my stuff is too risque (for reasons I can't quite "get" yet).

Do you think maybe editors think your stuff is too risque because of the darker look of the strip, and not so much the humor itself? And don't take that as a criticism or a knock...because it isn't. What I mean is maybe they're judging by the look of the strip without really giving the actual content a chance? I have people who think my strip is a sci-fi strip, when really it's a family strip about a group of friends; obviously there is some sci-fi stuff, but it's kind of secondary.

[Jennifer Babcock]

MightyMartian said:

Do you think maybe editors think your stuff is too risque because of the darker look of the strip, and not so much the humor itself? And don't take that as a criticism or a knock...because it isn't. What I mean is maybe they're judging by the look of the strip without really giving the actual content a chance? I have people who think my strip is a sci-fi strip, when really it's a family strip about a group of friends; obviously there is some sci-fi stuff, but it's kind of secondary.

I'm not quite sure honestly. I always got the feeling that certain peoples never actually read through my entire archive... just from what they've said to me about it.

It could be a matter of looks too I suppose. It's been said to me more than once that Mona looks too "goth" (even though she isn't) or too harsh- jagged hair, all black attire, cigarette in hand, etc.

Danae from Non Sequitor and that chick from Agnes kinda look depressing to me though too. I guess if you're a kid, it's ok to look jaded.

Anyway, I'll have to think about that some more.

[MacManDeluxe]

Jennifer said:

I'm not quite sure honestly. I always got the feeling that certain peoples never actually read through my entire archive... just from what they've said to me about it.

It could be a matter of looks too I suppose. It's been said to me more than once that Mona looks too "goth" (even though she isn't) or too harsh- jagged hair, all black attire, cigarette in hand, etc.

Danae from Non Sequitor and that chick from Agnes kinda look depressing to me though too. I guess if you're a kid, it's ok to look jaded.

Anyway, I'll have to think about that some more.

I guess I can see why they would be worried about the appearance of a new strip, since many readers might see it and immediately complain and make false, unfair accusations to the editor for no real reason at all. Plus, in most cases the newspaper would have to drop one of it's current strips. So I guess you just need lots of positive feedback from a large mass of people (and that's all!!!!).

Have you talked to your editor recently? I'm wondering if there's anything new concerning the syndication (and publication!) of CLV.

[MightyMartian]

Jennifer said:

I'm not quite sure honestly. I always got the feeling that certain peoples never actually read through my entire archive... just from what they've said to me about it.

It could be a matter of looks too I suppose. It's been said to me more than once that Mona looks too "goth" (even though she isn't) or too harsh- jagged hair, all black attire, cigarette in hand, etc.

Danae from Non Sequitor and that chick from Agnes kinda look depressing to me though too. I guess if you're a kid, it's ok to look jaded.

Anyway, I'll have to think about that some more.

I think I'd leave the look the same. Maybe it's the size of the strip itself? Do you think that holds you back at all? Personally, that's the only thing I can see that might be considered 'wrong' with the strip. I'm not sure what size you draw your strip, but it doesn't seem like a standard newspaper comic size. It looks about 1/3 larger height-wise than most comics, which gives you a lot of extra room to work with. Maybe that scares off editors/syndicates? Did you ever think about going with more of a standard size border? I'm not trying to be critical here, just a thought...

[Jennifer Babcock]

MacManDeluxe said:

I guess I can see why they would be worried about the appearance of a new strip, since many readers might see it and immediately complain and make false, unfair accusations to the editor for no real reason at all. Plus, in most cases the newspaper would have to drop one of it's current strips. So I guess you just need lots of positive feedback from a large mass of people (and that's all!!!!).

Have you talked to your editor recently? I'm wondering if there's anything new concerning the syndication (and publication!) of CLV.

No, I haven't talked to him recently- and that's all I can really say about that.

[Jennifer Babcock]

MightyMartian said:

I think I'd leave the look the same. Maybe it's the size of the strip itself? Do you think that holds you back at all? Personally, that's the only thing I can see that might be considered 'wrong' with the strip. I'm not sure what size you draw your strip, but it doesn't seem like a standard newspaper comic size. It looks about 1/3 larger height-wise than most comics, which gives you a lot of extra room to work with. Maybe that scares off editors/syndicates? Did you ever think about going with more of a standard size border? I'm not trying to be critical here, just a thought...

I highly doubt that size is the issue. If a syndicate was truly interested in my work, they wouldn't like the size of the strip keep them from offering me a contract. They'd simply tell me to start using standard newspaper format. Another reason I don't think it's a big issue is b/c the editor I was working with never even mentioned cropping the strip's size- we were much more concerned with how much the writing and the art appealed to readers.

To be honest, I don't even know what standard newspaper strip size is. I should probably look that up, but since I have no reason to crop now, I think I'll just stick with the larger size.

[rseymour]

How can anyone knock (Wiley etc.) who are already there. Got to admit, he's well read and knows his stuff. He's also very funny.

I like both venues. Each has it's place. I'm still learning and have a long way to go. Civilized and uncivilized discussion good!! RAG on!!!!!